Thanks Earnest for the update of what the Organized book says.
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
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1985 and baptism...I wish I had read this before today
by enoughisenough ini am posting a link as to being legally bound to jw rules at time of baptism.
i only did a quick skim, but what i gathered is interesting, and what it says about 1985 may be of use to some hoping to just fade and not be bothered.
in 1985, the questions were changed at baptism for legal purposes so they could have causation to defend themselves should you decide to sue for whatever reason.
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Disillusioned JW
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: In my prior post where I said "Mark 18:30" I should have said "Luke 18:30".
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
The account at Mark 10:30 (NASB Updated) does say "will receive a hundred times more now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms ... and in the age to come, eternal life" but I don't see evidence of that literally happening now for people. As a result I don't believe it. Yes some people get many more friends and quasi family members when they become an evangelical Christian and join a mainstream Christian congregation (and even some people purportedly received more friends when they become a JW) and you received a much better life, but I don't believe any of them received a hundred times more houses and farms (or a 100 times other possessions after selling all of their possessions and giving away all of the proceeds to the poor). It is good though that you are much happier now.
Furthermore, Matthew 19:28-29 does not say that any of the material blessings or new family members will come in the current age. Verse 28 (NASB Updated) says "in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne" the 12 apostles (thus apparently including Judas, according to this verse) "shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." That obviously hasn't happened, and if it hypothetically happens it will be in the future (but I no longer believe it ever will happen). Verse 29 doesn't say "a hundred times more" but makes a much more modest claim of "many times as much" and it does not say when that will be be, but the context of 28 gives the impression that Jesus was claiming it will be in the future, "in the regeneration".
The account of Matthew was written later than that of Mark and after Christians noticed that the kingdom hadn't come yet, even though Jerusalem had been destroyed in 70 CE.
Luke 18:29-30 combines elements of Matthew 19:28-29 and Mark 10:29-30 and uses some wording not found in Matthew and Mark, but admittedly Mark 18:30 does say (in the NASB Updated) "at this time and in the age to come, eternal life." By the way Luke 18:29-30 makes it sounds like those who lost their wife "for the sake of the kingdom of God" (1984 NWT) will receive many times more wives "in this period of time" if they become a true follower of Christ; very interesting!
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Correction: 3.25 hours prior to me submitting this post I submitted a post in which the first sentence of the second paragraph is poorly worded. That post is delayed in posting (as of the time of me submitting this post). After it posts and after this post (which is also delayed in posting) posts, note that the problematic sentence should say the following. "Yes after mentioning the account about the rich man in which the three gospels (which I mentioned in my earlier post) say that Jesus said that people should give all of their belongings away and follow Christ, Jesus later says the people will be richly rewarded in heaven, but even when I was a Christian and believed Christ would return I didn't know when Christ would return and when the kingdom would be established on (or over) the Earth." Further note that of course since about 12 years (when I stopped believing in God and a heavenly Christ) I have been certain Jesus never went to heaven and that he thus can't return to Earth and that he won't rule as king on (or over) the Earth.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze I have no regret for saying the words "I" and "my" in my prior post. Since you say I was in error I ask you the following. "Have you sold all of your material belongings (including all the assets you saved up for retirement) and and given away all of the proceeds of such to the poor?" Please tell me your answer to that question.
Yes after mentioning the account about the rich man the three gospels (which I mentioned in my earlier post) say that people give people give it all away and follow Christ, they will be richly rewarded in heaven, but even when I was a Christian and believed Christ would return I didn't know when Christ would return and when the kingdom would be established on (or over) the Earth. Many Christians think similarly and in the meantime we need to take care of ourselves if we don't want to be homeless. Are you homeless? The NT says Jesus said he had no place to rest his head.
Furthermore, what if what the Bible says about the kingdom is false? Granted you are convinced of what the Bible says but many Christians are not completely certain that they will receive eternal life in the kingdom of Christ and that God will take care of their needs if they give away all of their possession, just as many Christians don't believe God answers their prayers.
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, what is recorded at Luke 14:33 as a saying attributed to Jesus is a very hard saying to emotionally accept (at least for me). It is one of the sayings attributed to Jesus which I consider to be disturbing, like the rich Jewish man (who sincerely claimed to keep all of the laws of the Torah) being told by Jesus to give away all of his belongings to the poor (If the rich man wanted to be "perfect" and inherit "everlasting life") [Mark 10:17-25; Matthew 19:16-24; Luke 18:18-26]. I don't want to give up all of the things I own. I also don't want to give up my living body and I don't want to give up my life either.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Hi carla. It is OK to me that you are convinced that JWs are not Christians.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
carla, numerous dictionaries and encyclopedias in their entry about Jehovah's Witnesses say they are a Christian sect (or a Christian denomination or a Christian group), and thus say the religion is Christian. A number scholars even say the ancient Gnostics were Christians.
A number of surveys of religion, including specifically of Christianity, also classify Jehovah's Witnesses as Christians. For example, https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/04/26/a-closer-look-at-jehovahs-witnesses-living-in-the-u-s/ says "Jehovah’s Witnesses identify as Christians, but their beliefs are different from other Christians in some ways." Notice it didn't say they different "from Christians', but rather "from other Christians", thus saying they are Christians. The article also says "Like many other highly religious Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses tend to take conservative positions on social issues."
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2011/12/19/global-christianity-exec/ says "Other Christians, such as Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, make up the remaining 1% of the global Christian population."
The following is a clarification of what I said in a prior post regarding my words of "'in regards to what the WT has lyingly said of so-called apostates (that all of them lie about the WT), I didn't know such was the case until years after I became baptized." By that I meant that I didn't know (until many years after my baptism) that the WT was lying when it said that all apostates (that which the WT calls apostates of the JW religion) lie about the WT. I learned years after my baptism that many apostates in their attacks of the WT's teachings accurately quote WT literature (without misrepresenting the quotes), instead of lying about the WT.
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Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, regarding you comment of "Demons believe the same and shudder. Are they Christians too?" my answer to you is as follows. The difference is that JWs (including me when I was a JW) worship Jehovah God and most JW's (even including probably the governing body of the JWs) do their best to do what they believe is God's will. Furthermore, the difference is that JWs love Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and are loyal to them (at least they believe they are loyal to them) and they hope of becoming blessed by Jehovah God, including attaining eternal life (whether in heaven as a spirit being or on Earth as a perfect human being). Regarding the demons I no longer believe they exist (as you know), though I realize that the Bible says they exist and that the Bible says they believe in God and shudder.
Regarding the claim of "They literally lie through their teeth publicly on street corners and say that they do believe and teach this stuff" I don't know if that is true, except perhaps in regards to a very small percentage of JWs. When I talked to a couple of JWs (I spoke to each them on a different occasion) I thought that one of them was lying in some things he said, or was possibly very deluded. I thought the other person was deluded in regards to one thing she said. I never said (such as when witnessing for example) the WT teaches something I knew it didn't teach.
I notice you said the following. "Only you find out later after baptism that they lied to you. Then, it's too late. By that time, they have their hooks into you and your family." In regards to their doctrines pertaining to what the Bible teaches that wasn't the case with me, since I was taught the JW religion from infancy (rather than from JWs witnessing to me in field service) and thus I studied the WT literature for years before I became baptized. However in regards to the WT's mishandling of quotes of many scientists (and of some other other sources) and in regards to what the WT has lyingly said of so-called apostates (that all of them lie about the WT), I didn't know such was the case until years after I became baptized.
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45
Does Jesus Live Inside JW's ?
by Sea Breeze inexamine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves.
know ye not your own selves, how that jesus christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
- 2 cor.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze, I realize that WT has a number of teachings which disagree with the what the Bible says about Christianity, but they also have a number of teachings which agree with what the Bible teaches about Christianity. That latter include the following: Jesus is the son of God; Jesus is the Messiah and the Christ; a kingdom has been promised to Christ, Christ will execute judgement, a number of Christians will rule with him and serve as kings and priests during the time that Satan will be in the abyss for 1,000 years, and that Jesus is the mediator of those who will serve in such a capacity; that through Jesus Christ everything (and everyone) in existence; other than God the Father and Jesus (and the holy spirit?); came into existence.